Where was God?

Neron, I recognize that you are passionate about this. Any worthy topic deserves passion in the discussion.

I know it is a bitter pill for many Israelis to swallow, who are of the religious persuasion. The reason God has not always fought for Israel was due to their exceedingly great..."more than the nations around you..." wickedness. For example, consider Daniel's prayer, in Daniel 9:

“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, ⁵ we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. ⁶ We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land.

⁷ “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. ⁸ We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, LORD, because we have sinned against you. ⁹ The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; ¹⁰ we have not obeyed the LORD our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. ¹¹ All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.

“Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. ¹² You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. ¹³ Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. ¹⁴ The LORD did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the LORD our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.

This was the prayer Daniel prayed when he determined that the 70 year exile in Babylon was nearing it's completion.

Neron, I say that Israel is here to stay, and there's nothing you or I or anyone can do about it. God will make sure it happens, and yes, I've even said that God will fight for Israel. This does not mean Israel has God's approval for all it's deeds. It fulfills God's purposes to have Israel survive, and beyond the little bit He has reveald through His servants, the Prophets, we do not know all that will come to pass. But I do know this: There will indeed be a national conversion of Israel to belief in Yeshua haMeshiach. Daniel 9:27 will come to pass and Yeshua spoke of those days in the book of Matthew, Chapter 24. That section was written for the Israelis who will believe in Yeshuah following His appearing the clouds, where "every eye shall see Him." It is He who is spoken of in Daniel 7:

¹³ “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. ¹⁴ He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Neron, God is faithful, even if mankind is faithless. Secular Israel is indeed being faithless, even though 80 percent claim to believe in God, and that belief impacts their day to day life. In the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox expressions, they miss completely the law of compassion for the foreigner in their land. But I know He is faithful. He will do all His will, and no one will stay His hand.

Where was God?

Only in the minds of the sheeple that believe in the invisible man in the sky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o = George Carlin "Religion is BS"

God loves you, but he needs your money, and more of it.

Interesting, Neron. I disagree on a few main key points, but that being said, you gave a logical, well stated response. Thank you.

We cannot decipher Biblical prophecy outside of historical and current culture and world conditions. I find a compelling likeness between the 12th Imam, touted by the Shiites as the "Muslim messiah" (hence an "other messiah") and the descriptions we know from Daniel, Matthew 24 and 2d Thessalonians 2.

Yes, according to earthly lineage, Yeshua is the son of David (Isaiah 11:1-5) however as concerns this "antiChrist" (which is actually a popular misnomer, but then so is "anti-Semite"), or more correctly, "man of sin", was typified by Antiochus Epiphanes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes

And see, here's the thing. We don't have to argue about it, even though we can discuss, because after all, God is going to do what God is going to do, and we cannot change anything but our own eternal end, and even that is predicated upon a promise He made.

Neron, we may not understand all, and hold opinion as fact, but I strongly suspect our choices and the exercise of our free will is of much greater importance and has much more severe ramifications than we may dare believe. Specifically, what is it that we do and choose concerning the One He has appointed as the sacrifice Lamb for all peoples? Do we believe in the One He has sent...belief demonstrated by a transformed life...or do we consider our theology to be sufficient, and concern ourselves not at all with the finding of Him?

Neron, very good! Almost correct. I've also discovered this from researching the 12th Imam, or "Mahdi" as you put it, as it's an easy assumption to realize they are one and the same. According to the doctrine, the 12th Imam will appear together WITH Jesus Christ and will usher in a time of peace and prosperity for all Muslims, Jews and Christians.

However, the research. study and instruction from God has taught me that Jesus Christ will appear BEFORE the 12th Imam, in the heavens, and will call all who have believed in Him as evidenced by a transformed life, both living and dead, to Him. THEN will the 12th Imam appear, in the midst of worldwide chaotic confusion. In that "every eye shall see Him", the glaring, undeniable truth as to who is Messiah will be realized by the world. The nation of Israel will largely convert to belief in Jesus the Messiah, and the Muslims will put forth the one who comes that brings stability and a unity to the world. However, after 3 1/2 years, he will turn on Israel, and usher in the Great Tribulation. Matthew 24:

http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=NIV

Antiochus Epiphanes could not be the fulfillment of this passage because it had already taken place.

Then, Jesus will appear again, this time physically descending to the Mount of Olives, which will cause a split from east to west, in the mountain. He will destroy this 12th Imam, this "Mahdi", this "man of sin", and usher in a 1000 year period known as the Millenial reign of Christ.

Please compare these two:

⁷ He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. ⁸ But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

⁹ After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

¹⁰ They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. ¹¹ “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts, Chapter 1, the Bible)

and....

¹³ “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. ¹⁴ He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Notice how the first is from earth, looking to the skies, and the second, written some 620 years before the first passage, is the perspective of the same event, but from the court of heaven.

And the subject of both, is Jesus the Messiah, son of David, born of a virgin, crucified for sinners, raised from the dead by the power of God, ascended on high leading captivity captive. He will come again, in the proper time.

Neron, it is not problematic for me that you do not believe in the rapture of the church. That is a detail I will leave to God and God alone. Yes, it's fun to talk about, and having the comfort that we will not have to endure the Great Tribulation. Yet again, I leave that to God. If He should desire the "Bride of Christ" suffer in such a manner, then let it be so. We who know Him understand that this life is the vast minority of our existence. A spit in the river.

I do however, take issue with your view on John 5:43. Jesus was speaking hypothetically, and not prophetically. He was not saying that another would come in his own name. Please not the word "IF". Consider also, please that everything Jesus did was in full view. Witnesses numbered from the tens to the thousands. However, in Islam, Muhammad claimed to have seen a vision in a cave....an angel. He was alone, and there were no witnesses. I find it interesting also that similar is true of the Mormon "prophet" Joseph Smith, who claimed to have seen an angel in the woods, alone and unobserved.

And as for Jews who have had the veil removed in Messiah, I am one. He is mighty and strong on behalf of those who cling to Him, and hear His voice. As the Word says, "the days are coming when the dead will hear the voice of God and rise..." As I was dead, so He called to me and I heard Him, and He made me alive!

Neron, yes I am, although I find I spend half my time explaining what that means and the other half dealing with Christians telling me I need to believe in Jesus and Jews calling me an apostate. Often I use the more general term "Christian" but mostly I simply say I am a main of faith, and I have relationship with God the Father through faith in Jesus Christ. It is in the explanation of what that means that I am actually able to communicate the truth of God's love, expressed through the sacrifice of His Son.

I also understand that by the works of keeping the Laws of Moses, one cannot obtain salvation, nor please God. Having said that, I do know that there are elements of the Laws that are a true blessing. One of the few times I've actually seen the glory of God was when my wife and I chose a Sabbath rest in our home, and exchanged television for the study of Scripture and worship, ensuring we would not be disturbed. God put a stamp of approval on that day, alright! I also find the Passover meal itself speaks of Messiah, our passover Lamb.

Neron, the keeping of the works of the Law did not produce a righteousness by faith, acceptable to God. I have encountered "converts" to Messianic Judaism...gentiles who embraced some form of Messianic Judaism...who began to act like the party of the circumcision, going about telling people that unless they keep the Law of Moses, they cannot be saved. Unfortunately, I was too stunned to answer appropriately, at that time. I don't think such would be the case now.

When I entered the military, Passover happened when I was in basic training. My friend back home sent me a box with some kosher foods....matzoh crackers, tehina, pickled herring, and so on, so I could have at least some form of a kosher meal for the observance. The unit commander called me in and enquired why I needed these things, when food was provided, and I explained. Then, quite inappropriately, he explained his own Presbyterian faith and began to tell me that I could not please God by the keeping of the Law. I did not take offense, and was actually pleased to find that there was another man of faith in the area. I explained that my testimony to those around me is evidenced by my acts of faith, and he allowed the substitution.

Currently, I do not attend a Messianic Jewish congregation. I know who I am, and God knows who I am, and I attend a non-denominational church. I resist being labelled, and routinely encounter people who become dismissive once they have applied a label to me, and decide that's all they need to know. Even more than I am a son of Jacob (actually Levi and Reuben), I am a son of God, made so by the shed blood of my Messiah, Jesus Christ. My perspectives that HE has borne in me enable me to present His truths in many different settings, and be heard, whereas if I said "I am this", then I would be handily dismissed by many. So many do atrocities under the name of Christ, and commit grave sin. Truly "the heathen mock Your holy Name because of us." If He should choose to call me His, that is His choice. But as for me, I love Him, and I long for Him, and I long to see His will accomplished in this world.

And what of you, Neron? You have spoken of the Torah and ha-Torah, as well as the New Testament. Likewise I do not believe a Jew must convert to Christianity in order to be saved, however, as Jesus told Nicodemus, "You must be born again." When that happens, it is easiest if a newly born creation of Jesus Christ gravitates to Messianic Judaism, as the confessing of their faith would cause them to be rejected in Judaistic circles. But we are His. Jesus said, "My sheep know My voice." Let us learn to know His voice.

Neron, this idea of a second Messiah, I must defer to the Biblical writings, and no other. Godly men undertook the task of establishing our Biblical canon, and the same God who inspired the writings also inspired their selection.

I do not agree with this dual messiah doctrine, and indeed wonder at how you came to believe in such. I accept nothing other than the completed and all-sufficient work of Jesus Christ upon the cross. The Temple layout was indeed a model of the one in heaven, so we are told, and the service was dictated by God. It is indicative of the most basic truths regarding sin and wickedness in this world; specifically, that sin brings death. And in that sin brings death, atonement is required. That's why Jesus is our "Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world."

Neron, God did not make the Gospel complicated, or able to be understood only after much study, and happily so.
By the way, have you learned to read Hebrew and Greek?

Neron, the two greek words αμνος and αρνιον are synonyms of each other. They may be considered as "lamb" and "sheep", although they are in both instances translated as "lamb".

Please consider:

¹ I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. ² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” ³ And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. ⁴ Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; ⁵ and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”

⁶ And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. ⁷ And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. ⁸ When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ⁹ And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Now, either someone was lying, or they were really confused. First, the strong angel declares the "Lion from the Tribe of Judah, the son of David" is worthy to open the book, after declaring no one in all heaven, earth, and under the earth was found who was worthy. Then the Lamb takes the book and opens it, and the elders fall down and declare that the Lamb is worthy. Either the Book of Revelation is in error at this point, or Jesus is both the Lion of Judah, the Seed of David, and the Lamb "looking as if it had been slain".

Neron, I have seen much error come out of the Book of Revelation by those who declare they understand completely the imagery and allegory. Usually, such persons are rather puffed up with pride for their Biblical prowess, not realizing they have fallen into error. I urge you as one chosen by God to walk in the truth, to get a book on Biblical exegesis, and principles of Interpretation. I think such a book would go very far in helping you to understand Scripture, even if you have not learned the original languages. I am able to attest to you, and affirm, that our English translations are sufficient, and I usually use the NIV for context, or the NASB for a more literal, word for word, translation. The New English Bible is also good, while the International Version, a Canadian work from 2006 is full of dangerous error, as is the Hohlman translation.

God bless you my friend, and as the day is approaching, let us always labor to believe the truth. There are enough people in this world that are lost and deceived by the false, they need those of us who know the truth to always pursue the truth, even if they theirselves do not know their need.

Then why does Paul call him "the man of sin" in 2d Thessalonians 2? And I agree that the veil will be lifted when the "fulness of gentiles" comes into the 'church', and Matthew 24 was written for those Jews who embrace Jesus as Messiah when the "man of sin" comes on the scene. Otherwise, Matthew 24 does not make sense, and contradicts with other portions of scripture, as well as history. The antichrist, or the man in whom is the spirit of antichrist, will usher in the Great Tribulation, and for 3 1/2 years commit murder of the Jews and Christians throughout the world. This is what end time scripture teaches.

And as for Jesus Christ not being the theme of Revelation, in some ways yes, and in some ways no. I continue to maintain the truth that the work of Jesus Christ upon the cross is complete, and as Peter said, "¹² Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12) Once again, either Peter was mistaken, or he spoke the truth. If he was mistaken, then all scripture is suspect and capable of error. However, if he spoke the truth, then there cannot be nor will ever be another. The one who is to come, who will be touted as another Messiah, will be wickedness incarnate.

And Neron, Jesus said, "You must be born again." I find that what happens often is that perhaps at some point, a person had a genuine interaction with God, yet they did not pursue a continued relationship with Him, but built an entire construct on that one initial interaction. I fear such has happened with you. If indeed there was some teacher of the 7th Day Adventist church, I know that in the past they wandered down some pretty deceptive paths, including the doctrine of Annihilation, abstinance from meat, touting of the SDA model of schooling as superior to all other methods, including home schooling, as well as some pretty strange teachings about the end times. I never dug too deeply as the error was evident, and that was enough for me. I know they have backed off such dogmatic views in these later days, and really enjoy listening to www.plr.org , a radio station from Walla Walla, WA supported by the SDA college and community in that town. If a heartfelt love for Jesus and acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior is the key to eternal life, this radio station reveals such love for Him, and they place Him only in the position of Lord and Savior.

And this I offer to you; create in your heart, and make the choice to allow God the freedom to be Lord over our theology. Amen?

Amen.

Neron,

You have Spoken of
The "DUAL Messiah's", and The "Anti-Christ of Christianity

You have Spoken of
The Basis, or The LACK of Basis, for The Success or Failure, of The RE-Born Jews, in The RE-Born Israel

Now, please, Neron, are you in a position to Speak with an equal Candor,
on ANY Revelation that You may have had about Mohammad, as You've had about Jesus ?!

Mohammad and Islam, and Submission .... Jesus and Christianity, and Redemption

I and others have followed the conversation of Levi and Neron

Mohammad is a prophet of God and Islam is a noble religion.

"The Muslim religion is so unreformed since it was created that nowhere in the Muslim world has there been any real advance in science, or art or literature, or technology in the last 1500 years."

Islam thrives because of ignorance, not in spite of it. Excluding Indonesia over 54% of Muslims are illiterate. Over 67% of Muslim women cannot read. Less than 1% of all scientific papers come from Muslim countries. Harvard University provides more annual scientific discoveries than all Muslim nations combined. Spain translates more books annually than all Muslim nations. Muslim countries have the worst records of equality, civil and human rights.

Half of all Muslims in the world are inbred: Pakistan70 % Turkey30% Algiers34% Bahrain46% Egypt35% Nubia80% Iraq60% Jordan64% Kuwait64% Lebanon45% Libya48% Saudi Arabia67% Syria41%. Research shows IQ is 10-16 points lower in inbred children and social behavior develops slowly and have a high rate of mental disorders.

Neron, I am not at all conducting this conversation with an antagonistic attitude...not at all. So please, let us be assured, if I do not agree with you and challenge your assertions, it is not from arrogance or a position of superiority. We are all in this together, and as "iron sharpens iron"...

Having said that, you have not proven your case for dual messiahs. These scriptures you have offered:

John 5:4
John 1:29/Rev. 5
Rev. 22

In none of these have you proven, neither by solid exegesis nor original languages, your case for dual messiahs. Neither have you responded to my discussion. I have responded to yours, answering your comments, but I only see a restating of your belief in dual Messiahs, saying that you came to this conclusion on your own.

Neron, 2d Peter 1:20. God did not relegate His truths to a few, neither did He make them difficult to discover. The only qualifications place on those who would discover the truth is being born of the Spirit ("He will lead you into all truth") and "wisdom" ("let the wise discern") which likewise comes from God (Job 28).

Neron, I ask you again. What proofs do you have of this dual Messiah view, as well as the insufficiency of the work of Christ on the cross? Nothing in the 66 books of the Bible support this view, and if it is indeed extra-Biblical, then I must cry foul at the false being put forth as truth, contrary to the Bible. I tried to find teaching on this subject online, and found nothing. Please, I ask you, either state your proofs, or else admit the false. The ramifications are much more than my winning of an argument, which is of very small importance to me. Others are reading our exchange, and for their sake, as well as yours, I call on you to prove these points.

State your sources, please! It's not an unreasonable request! For all our sakes, taking to heart the warning that false prophets share the same fate as the beast, let us find the truth!

Neron, I am unfortunately unable to print out at this time, sitting in Starbucks somewhere north of Seattle. I hope to be going home this weekend, and perhaps I may print them then.

I agree that the only scriptures available during the time Jesus walked the earth were the Law and the Prophets. And yet John had this recollection of what Jesus said, for the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and "He will remind you of everything I have said." John 5:39;

³⁹ You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, ⁴⁰ yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

The name "Jesus", the English translation of Yeshua, is not found in the Old Testament, true. But Yeshua is. And Jesus is known not so much by name, but by actions and happenings. So again, it comes down to it...is John in error? Did he lie when writing what Jesus said?

And in the 24th chapter of Luke, he recounts an event of when Jesus appeared to two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus. After questioning them, He made this statement:

²⁵ He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! ²⁶ Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” ²⁷ And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

So, apparently Jesus was mistaken, and unable to rightly exegete the Torah and ha-Torah?

~~~~~~Later~~~~~~~

Okay, I think I have a basic understanding of the source of this view, and it comes from the Hassidim. Therefore, having found only deduction and allegations, could you please provide for me any prophetic scripture in the Tenach (Torah v haTorah) that puts forth a descendant of Joseph as a Messiah? Specifically, God declared David to be the progenitor of the line of the Messiah, and there never are two messiahs that are given that which Daniel saw in chapter 7, specifically "He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."? There is no other of whom this is said. Off the top of my head I can think of several scriptures from the prophets that speak of one Messiah only. The Hassidic inference is that God called a descendant of Joseph, but again, they offer no proof. When has God ever said, by prophecy, that another will have that title "messiah"?

Further, I dismiss with all authority the statements of the Hassidim as concerns the Messiah of Israel, for they, by both word and deed, deny Him. Jesus, when asked

²⁸ “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

²⁹ Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

³⁰ So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? ³¹ Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’"

The entire recitation is the understanding of ONE.

Further, Neron, there is ineed a "veil" as it were over the face of the Jew, to where the truth is hidden from them. None of my ancestors believed in Messiah, and I have met many who are a descendant of Jacob (I purposely do not say "Jew") is nonpracticing, yet denies that Jesus is the Messiah, even though they cannot and will not explain why they hold this view! The unlearned deny Him, and the learned deny Him, but yet they cannot explain the Messianic prophecies. And clearly, they are of one Messiah for the people of this world.

And I do know this, Neron. It is a gift of God to know the truth, and to the one who humbles their heart, and seeks to know the truth, He promises they will find it.

Okay, Shiloh is an English derivative of the Hebrew word, transliterated as "shaulach", which means "one who is to be sent" or "messenger", and is counted among the Messianic prophecies concerning Jesus, descended from the tribe of Judah.

that would then render "shiloh" to be a derivative of Shalom. Neron, if we be people who search for the truth, and are willing to sacrifice personal belief for the truth, then we must admit this truth, that the jury is still out as to the exact meaning of Shiloh. It may be the name of a town, or a person, or as you said, "peaceful one", or as I said, "messenger" or "one who is sent".

Either way, whichever it may be, in Revelation, one of the names for Jesus, as I've already demonstrated, is "Lion of Judah". I know Genesis 49:10 is quite often taken as a Messianic prophecy regarding Jesus, and it's easy to make that inference. Without information to the contrary, I tend to go with the Messianic prophecy, especially since what else we know about Jesus Christ's earthly lineage lines up with Jacob's blessing to Judah. And still, Neron, my friend, this is not proof, nor even evidence, of the dual Messiah view.

amongst many other things....
I will agree, to

*The Lion of Judah*

Where Mohammad is NOT accepted, then There, Islam is NOT accepted;

When Mohammad and Islam are NOT accepted;

Then Islam and Muslims either Must Fight
To MAKE a FULFILLMENT of The Prophesy of Islam,
Islam's Promise, That EVERYONE shall "One Day" BE Muslim,
Islam's Promise, upon which The "Truth" of Islam is *Based*
OR
Islam and Muslims, MUST CHANGE their "IDEA" that *EVERYONE WILL BE Muslim*
and Muslims then KNOW, that Islam is NOT, The *ONLY WAY* !!!!

When Muslims can SAY, "Islam is NOT the ONLY WAY"
then
There May be, a Peace!

The truth is One, dear morkfromork, and anything else is nothing but false. Muslims will never declare that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and that no man comes unto the Father but through Him, for then they would cease to be Muslims.

And again, I do not accept rabbinical commentary that declares knowledge about the Messiah, yet denies that Jesus is the one and only Messiah. How can one know the truth if they negate the truth from the beginning?

Levi,
as you said,
"....the truth is One...."
'....the truth from the beginning !...."
"....Jesus is the One...."
"....Messiah...."

Neron, Paul taught that there is no other name by which mankind may be saved, than the name of Jesus. This is not forced upon mankind, but according to the Pauline gospel, not everyone will be saved. Do you think Paul disagrees with the teachings of Jesus as recorded by the Gospel writers? What of Romans 9? What of the entire book of Romans?

Neron, I must declare your assessment of the greek word erroneous. Here's why. Consider the word "blue". Never mind the various spellings of the same sound (blew, bleu, blu), we may speak of the color, blue, or a person who is 'blue' with cold, or someone who is 'blue', as in sad.

It might help you to know that my minor in college was New Testament Greek.

Even though there may be multiple meanings for a word, context determines the proper usage.

And do you really think that God would consign someone to hell for ignorance? Further, John records Jesus' words in John 3, talking to Nicodemus that "Truly truly I say to you, unless you are born again, you cannot enter the kingdom of God." That word for "born" is the greek word γεννηθη, or "genay-thay". It is from this word we have the name for the first book of the Old Testament, "Genesis", which is a Greek word meaning "beginning". Jesus is saying, "unless you 'begin again as at the first when you were born' you cannot enter the kingdom of God." He said this to Nicodemus, and Nicodemus responded, "How can a man be born again? Can he enter his mother's womb a second time?" Jesus said, "You are a teacher of Israel and you do not understand? That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit."

I attest to you Neron, that unless you are born again, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. He made me born again of the Holy Spirit, in great power and deliverance. He will do the same for you, if you ask Him. I promise!

Greetings. I will chime in with the simple. When God/Jehovah call Abraham to leave his country and family, God said everywhere your feet walk this will I give to you and yours following. God also mentioned to him that every nation that blesses Israel God will bless and those that don't well we see that in today's history.

Yes God was there all the time. It was Israels disobedience that cause things to happen to them. Not all of Israel disobeyed. However they that did caused many to suffer under their rejection of the One True God Jehovah.

Salvation is contingent on Obedience to the Word of God.

Yah yah, kd. I know these things are lost on you. That's what happens when you begin with an atheistic belief, then try to squeeze everything into that narrow little box. Gotta hand it to you, though. Atheism takes a WHOLE lot more faith than does belief in God.

Maybe our God(s) want us to stand on our own two feet, rather than using them as a crutch/weapon/excuse. Perhaps we're being shoved out of the nest, and expected to grow up.

TC, with all due respect, I see you make that same comment often towards anyone whose views on Christianity and Judaism differ from yours.

You alone are not the arbiter of what your scriptures are all about, or what their true meaning is.

If you have some particular points you would like to discuss with Neron in his thread, feel free to list them specifically. Otherwise you appear to simply be making sweeping generalizations about everyone who disagrees with your personal interpretations of your religion.

Well now that the seeder has proven not to know Scripture....what next?

God only knows???

Silvaria - just a very simple reading of the Scriptures tells you that God allowed these events to happen to the Jews for punishment.......

Truett, I sort of got the feeling that Neron knew what he was talking about, and was just asking the question to point out the very valid topic. God brought Israel back into being, but they do not have a blank check to do what they will outside of His will. To a world that does not honor Scripture as do we, the question Neron posed would read quite differently had you or I posed it. We cannot assume all know Scripture, nor give validity to Scripture.

God bless you, my brother!

I think the truly 'religious' would probably say, "God never blunders."

But then again, I'm NOT truly religious, so what do I know.

Interesting statement, whether you believe in God or not.

I'm not religious either. Any time you strain knowledge or belief in God through the doctrines or sayings of men, that's religion. What I have is relationship. God is, and He reveals Himself to mankind. Problem is, so many people cannot hear Him because they are too busy declaring their mental prowess to be the highest level of intelligence in the Universe. Makes me think of a 5 year old sitting in a chair talking loudly to himself while the parent tells him to go clean his room, and the child just ignores the parent.

Everything I do relative to my belief in God flows out of my relationship with God. That's why I make it to church, but if I have to travel or miss it, or am sick, I don't feel like I've sinned. And when I go to church, it's a celebration, a time of thanksgiving, a time of focusing on topics He wants me to consider. It's not about adhering to form and rule, and doctrine. It's a life based on obedience to Him, and love for Him. That's also why I can challenge the pastor should he err in his comments during his sermons, even though I do so respectfully.

Thank you Neron, and I suspect the same may be true of you. However, if there's any credit, it's all His. I wouldn't have chosen me, right? We are the objects of His love, undeserving, yet forgiven as we humble our hearts and choose the good, in agreement with Him.

If there was no Israel, the republicans would have no allies.

Nonsense-- Big business has supported, and will always continue to support, the Republican Party.

Conservatives who don't give a hoot about any foreign country or any religious stuff will always continue to support the Republican Party.

(just as most labour unions, Blacks, Jews and gays will continue to support the Democrats).

Big business has supported, and will always continue to support, the Republican Party.

Big business supports both parties in order to keep the whole system in their pocket. Needless to say that Big business has no problem fomenting a plot to overthrow the government if they thought it served their interests.

(cough) J. Kennedy? J. Garfield? A. Lincoln? A. Jackson?

Hippocrates,

I'm NOT commenting on your thoughts about "big business",

(cough) J. Kennedy J. Garfield A. Lincoln => W. McKinley <=

My question is, if republicans take the presidency and the congress, then who besides Israel

will be an ally of the united states? Republicans say that Israel is our greatest ally, and I like

to know what other country in the world is a US. ally besides Israel, according to the GOP?

I'm NOT commenting on your thoughts about "big business",

Commenting that you're not commenting is, in fact, a comment in its own right...

Krishna-167929, I think you have misinterpreted my statement in #9. and cannot answer my

restated question in#9.4. If you want to answer the question, then I would appreciate it. If

you just do not value my opinion, and regard my question as non-sense, then I will let it go at that.

Hippocrates,

you are correct, I WAS commenting....

it was William McKinley, NOT Andrew Jackson; the "fourth" assassinated President.

it was William McKinley, NOT Andrew Jackson; the "fourth" assassinated President.

I didn't say Andrew Jackson was assassinated, the attempt on his life failed, both of the gunman's pistols misfired. The mistake I make was with Garfield, I actually meant William McKinley, so in a way you helped. Out of all the theories surrounding the motives behind the attempts on their lives they share only one reacquiring theory.

• A Jackson fought the Second US Bank and won. The First US Bank's charter ran out in 1811 and is often linked to the War of 1812.

• A Lincoln fought New York bankers. He refused their loans, offered at absurdly high interest rates, which were needed to pay for the war, instead Lincoln decided to print his own money (Green Backs)

• W McKinley supported the gold standard and high wages while opposed the talk about another Central Bank.

• J Kennedy allegedly fought the Federal Reserve Bank at the eleventh hour, after signing Executive Order 11110 in June 1963, Kennedy ended the future of Silver certificates and thus removed Silver as a precious metal backing up paper currency. This also made the economy entirely dependent on Federal Reserve Notes. Some scholars and crazies alike claim the Bankers had Kennedy bumped off.

Though, bankers are blamed for everything.

Hippocrates,

are YOU, one of the "scholars" or "crazies", that believe that, THAT, was the reason that Kennedy was

"bumped off" ??!!

Maybe Egyptian Bankers had Anwar Sadat Assassinated ?!

Egyptian and Syrian Bankers are "Behind" The Arab Spring ?!

are YOU, one of the "scholars" or "crazies", that believe that

Seems you're under the assumption that I believed the theories. Also, seems your ability to communicate hasn't improved nor became any more civil.

For more information into the theory, so you can make up your own mind, just follow the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories#Federal_Reserve_conspiracy

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/executiveorder11110.htm

"It is the Mark of an Educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it" - Aristotle.

Hippocrates,

I was NOT being DIS-Respectful to You, nor was I being UN-Civil to You;

I Merely, and Only, Repeated BACK to you, the EXACT words that You Used,
which I had thought were a "jest", on Your part (and I was laughing "with you"....)

YOU said, in your #9.8,
"...some scholars and crazies, alike, claim that the bankers had Kennedy bumped off...."

Hippocrates, do YOU insist on *fighting*, or, *discussing* ?!

and Maybe, (maybe)....The Egyptian Bankers had Sadat assassinated, and The Syrian Bankers are after Assad....

Hippocrates, it WAS Your theory....

Respectfully,

mork

I was NOT being DIS-Respectful to You, nor was I being UN-Civil to You;

You asked if I was a scholar or a crazy that believed something, even though I started with "allegedly".

Hippocrates of Cos J Kennedy allegedly

ie. Arieus' delightful morning wakeup video: Comment #1.3

Thanks......

suppose those who died are in a better place with God....despite how he took them?

...and suppose they're just...dead.

Yea all the trouble is on the Jews. What about all the suffering people in the world today who aren't Jews? Honestly on the scale of the "suffer meter" Jews are no where near the bottom seems to me those truly leading miserable existences are the ones knocking the Jews,why is that?

Neron

Wouldn't a better question be ,where IS God?

Neron,

as we breath, this very moment,

the "Record", is being *WRITTEN*

and neither you, nor I,
nor Muslim, nor Jew, nor Christian
KNOWS

however, we Shall Witness

Isn't our pain our instructor? It is if we will but learn.

I am convinced the challenge satan made to God concerning Job is relevant today. "Let me touch their _______— and they will turn and curse You to Your face." I cannot explain it all, but I know it is true, that by our choosing of Him we gain the ultimate victory over the devil.

We are told by James "resist the devil and he will flee from you." Imagine someone walking around you poking you all over, relentless and continually. That's what the devil does, trying to find the thing that will make you fall. And when he finds it, he jumps up and down on it. However, the defeat of him is a choice. WE make a choice, and choose the righteous, the good, the noble. The true. ANd we choose to cling to God through faith in Jesus Christ even though we at times seem to be the only one on the face of the whole earth.

I do not know if watching the one I love suffering, unable to change it or bring relief, is more painful than actually suffering. Men are fixers, and I cannot fix the suffering I see, though I would give my life. Bitterness, or anger at God is not in my considerations, though I know some go that route. Evil and sin reign in this world, as does the fruit of it...death. Yet it will one day end, and for us who cling to Him regardless of what our eye sees or our ears hear, or our bodies suffer, we will know one day that it was all worth it, and all will know that He has loved us.

When Jesus said, "Be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." (John 14, I think) He was telling us that it is possible to endure the harshness of wicked people and even be innocent and suffering a cruel death on a cross, and still remain faithful to the Father, hoping and trusting in Him. And which of us has walked the path He walked? I know I have not.